Wait wait wait, slow down… he’s right, you do have a green and grey website.

I actually find that quite hilarious, though I can see why you’d be pissed. Frankly, I don’t know what the hell he’s talking about. You fail to walk the walk??? How? <sigh> whatever. :)

Sorry, Mark, I guess I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

What the hell was that crap? Maybe he’s POed because his mom told him to move out of the basement.

I think we all need to pontificate a little more :)

That guy definitely needs to pontificate how he got in such a crappy state that he doesn’t know his asshole from his mouth

This is a real problem. Some people get it into their heads that there is this supposed hierarchy - from lofty blogging gurus to those at the bottom ‘in the trenches’. But its usually these people that create the whole hierarchy thing. Its all a load of bollocks

Now if you excuse me, I have to go and ‘web-up’ the world as we professionals say.

Well don’t look at me,

I didn’t mean to agrevate you with my comments in the other post. - I was just so tired of hearing designers complain about theft, although in your case your post was justifed by the fact the idiot was still using your server… It just struck of last months trend within $9 network, which saw many of its members complain about theft. - and unfortunatly for you, i unleashed frustration on your site.

As you are collectively presenting yourselves as the ‘best’ in web design then it seems only reasonable that these new young turks take your work, pull it apart and study it - ensuring a new generation of so called ‘experts’.

If you have never been inspired by someone else design then you are a liar. The comparison i raised was meant to highlight the link between content and presentation theft… but I won’t go into the matter further as you have requested this type of discussion to be done off site.

I’m sorry to hear about your present situation, i for one certainly wouldn’t kick someone if i knew they were down. I can hope that your health improves, and wish you all the best.

Personally speaking, there’s nothing wrong with art school. But Purlease? - please surely…

All the best with the future, keep fanning the flames…

/out

"As you are collectively presenting yourselves as the ?best? in web design...”

- See there it is. When has Mark ever presented himself as “The best in Web Design”? I think he’s pretty darned hot(!), and a good typographer, but when has he ever claimed himself to be the best?

You just do what you do. If people like it and start linking to it, does that mean that you’re selling yourself as better than thou? I don’t think so, but that seems to be the attitude.

yeah, he’s using tables for layout. Maybe this angry man was maintaining some legacy intranet app, his superiors realised he was doing nothing productive, sacked him, and now he has to get on the XHTML/CSS bandwagon.

I had this kind of discussion recently (well, better said—I read a monolog), but what amazes me is the absolutely negative attitude coming from those frustrated souls.

When contacted the so-called ‘A-list’ people, I found they are perfectly normal guys. They just deliver the content readers find interesting, so people link to their blogs. It’s that simple.

Oh, yeah and ‘the bandwagon’ thing…

?As you are collectively presenting yourselves as the ?best? in web design...?
- See there it is. When has Mark ever presented himself as ?The best in Web Design??

Well, one could say that by joining a collective that aims to weed out the crap and only present the cream of weblogs, and where selection is based on great design and great content, that he has put himself forward in this (collective) way.

Don’t get me wrong i think the guy’s email was a joke, and obviously wrong.

To claim there is no hierachy just seems wrong imho, there is no formal existence of course (except in art /design schools), but as style and taste go through trends which evolve and grow. Some informal structure must exist to enable this disemination.

How else can you explain the sudden propensity of grey green sites? I don’t know who started it or who is following, but it is an obvious trend to pick on, even noticed by the cretin in the email. It would seem fair comment to say that this form of communication takes a direction, and in so doing creates an informal hierachy.

One doesn’t have to declare themselve’s king or Queen to be put in that position by the people. - Witness the cult of the celebrity designer.

Mark i don’t think is there yet ;) - although i think he making a valient effort for pushing the discussion of design in the uk. Although this could be wishful thinking.

You could argue that just by speaking up through a blog that you are of course putting yourself forward in such a position anyway, declaring your self and message to the listening crowds patiently waiting for the feed to refresh… i’m getting tired so don’t hold me to that in the morning :o

I think there does need to be some place for critism of the industry in the uk (as a method of development), but maybe this is the wrong place, and we should let mr boulton carry on as is uncritised, or as readers in an interactive medium/community push forward and comment +/-, to some new common ground/ understanding /whatever.

And stop sucking each other off guys, its off putting you know!

oh, well, i did say i was tired. (defensively)

Web Standards 90210.  Gotta love it.

There’s a good old fashioned biblical principle called ‘edification’ - the whole point of talking to people, even when you have a problem with them is to improve them, not tear down. I don’t think this is anything to do with web design, just straightforward selfish jealousy.

I don’t think I ever said that because your in 9 rules your shit, or that grey and green is shit, i certainly didn’t mean that to be implied… don’t confuse me with the person in the email (we are definatly not the same person i assure you, my language may not be perfect but i hope to writemore clearly than him.

I have reservations about 9rules, and i have oh back in 03, designed a site in grey green (with an added a tint of yellow but this was 03), - so i can see where the trend may developed from (modern tech style, with a twist of fresh naturalism?)

My original point in the other post was i admit hastily written, but was meant highlight the percieved irony in you complaining about theft. How would robert bringhurst’s original reaction been differant from your own reaction? - this matter was of course corrected, and so can be put away…

I think it is fair comment that if you are presenting a (introductory) course on typography and design you are putting your self on a pedistal, or at least soapbox…

Anyway my original point was meant to be, jeez that sucks. - i forgot to mention that it was so badly written i didn’t understand it, but it wasn’t me, dispite taking issues over something else, and i wish you the best etc.

I and many others aren’t going to spend weeks researching points to make comments on a blog, its a quick fire round, but comments can still be vailid… My initial volley was perhaps out of order, and i apologise (again?) for that.

I’d like to think that my comments were meant to be critical and thoughtful. My defense of hierachy may be wrong, but i was taking that view to further the discussion on the point jon made, which i think i did in respectible manner. I think the whole reason i may have done so is in fact because of edification.

Go on then, even if i didn’t say negative remarks about 9 rules, why did you join?

Your thinking about beer at 7.41am? you pro you!

Which trenches are these real web guys in?

Is it a club you can join?

I want to be a member, sounds like so much fun :)

I was under the impression you were gathering together the piece’s you have written and plan on publishing them together (with extras?) for a fee.

I personnally believe this is changes your situation from just writting about something you are interested in to becoming an ‘authority’ type figure (otherwise why else buy into it, if not to gain knowledge from it?) - which i think is enough to warrent my point of view.

I have also said that i am only trying to offer constructive critism (sometimes badly), and also don’t think i have said what you are doing is nececerly a bad a thing.

I do welcome your point about the need for some form of dialogue about design in the web industry, considering the role design plays, the level of critism, discussion and even teaching (a for reason why the typo lessons are in fact needed) within the industry seems to be minimal at best.

anyway its nearing the time for beer now,

Humbug, you need to learn to spell before you can cast any sort of comment:

‘writting’
‘warrent’
‘nececerly’
‘critism’

Also out of interest show us a website you’ve designed.

Real authoritiy depends only on expertise within a given domain. Whether you think Mark is an authority, or I do, or he does, is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he is.

Moreover, authority is relative. Mark knows far more about design and typography than I do, and therefore I read his articles and find my own work improved through the greater understanding thereby achieved.

Your criticisms, Humbug, are therefore based merely on your perception of certain character traits that you find undesirable, to whit, Mark supposedly perceiving himself as some kind of expert or authority. This, however, is an absurd criticism. As I have demonstrated above, he is an authority is the relevant manner, since his articles are helpful and informative to those of us who know less than him. Authority is a relationship between persons; it does not exist in a vacuum. One is an authority to someone else.

By publishing these articles, Mark is implicitly setting himself up as an authority—to those who know less than him, and will consequently learn things from reading his articles. I find it very strange that you see something wrong with this. This is not false authority, based on sophism, it is authority based on greater understanding; it is earned, it is justified.

Moreover, we all writethings hoping to achieve something—we hope to writewell, to inform and educate and help others. Joining the 9rules network is merely an indication that Mark hopes that others (in this case Scrivs and the other members of the 9rules team) will find merit in his work and consequently help him to disseminate it to a wider audience.

Your attacks are based merely on personal prejudice, and have been rightly excoriated by the people on this thread.

This is the sort of flame war you’d expect to see on whitespace (usually provoked by Scrivs) but I really don’t think Mark deserves such negative communication when he’s providing some massively useful tutorials and learned theory for free for the rest of us. He rightly is one of the best web people around at the moment because he’s providing something nobody else is! I don’t understand the point that getlost is making but it does seem fairly irrational and bitter. Maybe s/he has just lost a job or something or has other personal issues? Shame they had to be directed here.

Hopefully I can get a comment or two in before this really gets out of hand. It may be too late the have a meaningful discussion about this, but I’ll try anyway.

My experience has been that when push comes to shove, the nay-sayers don’t have nearly the experience and talent as those they’re putting down. Their insecurities drive them, and they just haven’t found a positive way to get where they want to go.

Maratz wrote:

When contacted the so-called ?A-list? people, I found they are perfectly normal guys.

Me too! Months ago, I wrote Jason Santa Maria this long rambling email about design and how to get better. For whatever reason, I felt silly afterwards. But then he was extraordinarily generous with his comments and advice. Although I’ve not contacted Mark in the same way, I feel like if he had time, he would respond in a similar fashion. Just everyday people, workin’ hard. I certainly wasn’t trying to perpetuate some silly hierarchy, but I did want to learn. And I felt like he knew something I didn’t.

Humbug wrote:

You could argue that just by speaking up through a blog that you are of course putting yourself forward in such a position anyway, declaring your self and message to the listening crowds patiently waiting for the feed to refresh

No, I disagree here. Sometimes you just want to communicate with your friends and colleagues. And maybe make some more ‘friends and colleagues’ that you would’ve never had the opportunity to meet. Others want to share what they know and positively contribute to a passionate community more formally, with articles and such. Nobody’s trying to be Stalin.

Peter Holloway:

I don?t think this is anything to do with web design, just straightforward selfish jealousy.

Well put.

This whole discussion highlights the importance of how to critique effectively. Humbug’s ad hominem attacks ("against the man") of Mark’s design or business decisions come across as way off base.

If you need to critique my work as a designer, by all means do so! There’s no need to point the finger at the “you”. Point at “it”. Talk about the work, not about the man.

In addition, a lack of proper grammar greatly impedes viewers from taking Humbug’s statements’ seriously, myself included. Note my focus on the “work”, not the person… whoever he is.

I think the fact that he spent his time registering a fake e-mail address just to waste more of his time to send you a e-mail that in essence is complaining about your apparent lack of a credits link is pure comedy gold.

Must not have as much to do in those “trenches” as he’d like us to believe.

Whoa.  That message from “getlost” is harsh.  Pretty angry guy, huh?  Don’t let people like that get to you.  I’m willing to bet his real issues have nothing to do with you (or even web design).  Blow it off.  You’ve got a terrific site here.  I’ve learned so much from you...and I’m not alone.

What a tosser